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BobW
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012
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| | Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: Ford 600 hydraulics | The 3 pt lift on my friend's 600 stopped working last year, someone else resolved this by replacing the lift cover O rings, but he had to double the pressure side to get the lift back. Recently the lift stopped working again which is where I signed on. We removed the cover and it looked like the double O rings were not sealing. I found some dimensions for the OEM O ring, located a replacement, but no improvement so we moved on to troubleshooting the pump. We cranked the tractor with the lift cover off. I understand we should have 1500-2000 psi, oil flowed out of the gallery, but did not 'shoot' out. What should I see? I pulled the pump off, I believe it is a NCA600F (piston type). The pistons/cylinders are smooth no obvious signs of wear, pistons move freely in their cylinders, springs appear to be uniform strength. Before we drop significant bucks into a pump, is there a way to better diagnose the pump condition? There is also a problem with water getting into the hydraulic system as the oil was milky. I drained and replaced the reservoir, but are there locations where water typically enters the system?
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| | Back to top | JMOR
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| | Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | | BobW wrote: | | (quoted from post at 14:32:52 02/29/12) The 3 pt lift on my friend's 600 stopped working last year, someone else resolved this by replacing the lift cover O rings, but he had to double the pressure side to get the lift back. Recently the lift stopped working again which is where I signed on. We removed the cover and it looked like the double O rings were not sealing. I found some dimensions for the OEM O ring, located a replacement, but no improvement so we moved on to troubleshooting the pump. We cranked the tractor with the lift cover off. I understand we should have 1500-2000 psi, oil flowed out of the gallery, but did not 'shoot' out. What should I see? I pulled the pump off, I believe it is a NCA600F (piston type). The pistons/cylinders are smooth no obvious signs of wear, pistons move freely in their cylinders, springs appear to be uniform strength. Before we drop significant bucks into a pump, is there a way to better diagnose the pump condition? There is also a problem with water getting into the hydraulic system as the oil was milky. I drained and replaced the reservoir, but are there locations where water typically enters the system? |
Low volume (gallons per minute) pump and with zero restriction there is zero pressure. With it all assembled, install a gauge on the test port & measure pressure. Most water comes from every day/night, hot /cold condensation, with some entry at the draft control spring/plunger, if tractor exposed to rain.
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| | Back to top | Blindhawg
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| | Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | Did you try bleeding the air out of the system? My 640 needs it if I let it set for a month or more.
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| | Back to top | Kurt-NEPA
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| | Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | Why not go to CNH and get the right piston O-ring and back up washer. They are not expensive. If you don't have a local CHN dealer try Messick's. That should seal up the piston/cylinder and stop any major leaks.
JMOR is right for testing the pressure. But its possible is that the pump has lost its prime.
You can loosen the bleeder plug on the front of the pump and run the tractor for while. Let the oil pump out all over the place. Then tighten the plug and see what happens. Or get serious, plumb an elbow into the bleeder hole, attach a ball valve and then convert to a hose barb. Attach a length of clear tubing and run the tubing back to the fill port for the hydraulic fluid. Close the valve and start the tractor. Slowly open the valve and you should see oil flowing through the tube. I there are bubbles, run the tractor for a bit and see if the bubbles stop. If yes, close the valve and check the hydraulic function. If all is well, button her up and celebrate. If the bubbles just keep going - post back, you have seal leak in the pump.
Hope that makes sense.
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| | Back to top | JMOR
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| | Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | | Kurt-NEPA wrote: | (quoted from post at 21:53:20 02/29/12) Why not go to CNH and get the right piston O-ring and back up washer. They are not expensive. If you don't have a local CHN dealer try Messick's. That should seal up the piston/cylinder and stop any major leaks.
JMOR is right for testing the pressure. But its possible is that the pump has lost its prime.
You can loosen the bleeder plug on the front of the pump and run the tractor for while. Let the oil pump out all over the place. Then tighten the plug and see what happens. Or get serious, plumb an elbow into the bleeder hole, attach a ball valve and then convert to a hose barb. Attach a length of clear tubing and run the tubing back to the fill port for the hydraulic fluid. Close the valve and start the tractor. Slowly open the valve and you should see oil flowing through the tube. I there are bubbles, run the tractor for a bit and see if the bubbles stop. If yes, close the valve and check the hydraulic function. If all is well, button her up and celebrate. If the bubbles just keep going - post back, you have seal leak in the pump.
Hope that makes sense. |
Kurt is speaking from experience. Good advice.
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| | Back to top | BobW
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| | Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | I got off task, but will give this a try. We had oil flow from the case gallery so it almost has to be the cover O ring. I got a cover gasket set, hopefully it has the correct O ring. Thanks for the advice.
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| | Back to top | BobW
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| | Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | I put a kit in the pump since we had the parts on hand, blew out the pressure and return lines to make sure there were no obstructions, blew air through the cover to confirm the lift piston moved, put everything back together, confirmed pump operation and oil flow at the pump bleeder plug and prepared to celebrate. It was short lived as we still have zero movement of the lift arms.
The O ring I referred is between the lift cover and the chassis where the hydraulic oil enters and returns from the lift cover. I have rummaged through 2 lift cover gasket kits and neither has anything that appears to fit properly. I found the right OD, but too thin to extend above the recess and create a seal (which is why they used 2 on the last repair). There were a couple that are plenty thick, but the OD is larger than the recess so they distort. I found a detailed description at Alma Tractor & Equip and located some hydraulic suitable O rings this exact size. They appear to fit properly and we have oil flow at the accessory port on the lift cover when the accessory lever is 'on'. So I'm guessing we are sealed well enough that the lift should at least move with no implements attached. What do you think?
So if we have hydraulic pressure to the lift cover, where should I look next? I see we have a pressure relief valve in the cover and the piston/'valve assembly. Are there any other possibilities? Is it advisable to actually measure the pressure delivered to the lift cover? Where do I plumb the test gauge, into the accessory port?
Thanks.
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| | Back to top | Kurt-NEPA
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| | Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | So you are back to square one Bob. I've been there several times, fun isn't it. At least you know whats new and have gained a lot of knowledge. I pulled my top cover 4 times before I got everything right. Lots of work, but it was worth it.
So, you have flow at the test port on the 3X5 plate under the seat. That's good, but do you have pressure. Plumb a gauge into the test port and give it try. If you have pressure, I'm thinking a stuck unloader valve or bad linkage. The gauge should tell. No pressure we are back to chasing major leaks or pump prime.
Your comment about the o-rings between the top cover and center housing concerns me. Those two o-rings should be in the kit. How deep was the recess they fit in. Should only be about 1/16' deep? If its deeper something is wrong. A leak there could be your problem. If you pull your PTO Lever/Cover, run the tractor, you might be able to look in and see the leak. A good mirror and flashlight helps.
Hang in there you'll get it. Keep us posted, we are all learning as we go.
Kurt
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| | Back to top | JMOR
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| | Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | | BobW wrote: | (quoted from post at 13:27:36 03/12/12) I put a kit in the pump since we had the parts on hand, blew out the pressure and return lines to make sure there were no obstructions, blew air through the cover to confirm the lift piston moved, put everything back together, confirmed pump operation and oil flow at the pump bleeder plug and prepared to celebrate. It was short lived as we still have zero movement of the lift arms.
The O ring I referred is between the lift cover and the chassis where the hydraulic oil enters and returns from the lift cover. I have rummaged through 2 lift cover gasket kits and neither has anything that appears to fit properly. I found the right OD, but too thin to extend above the recess and create a seal (which is why they used 2 on the last repair). There were a couple that are plenty thick, but the OD is larger than the recess so they distort. I found a detailed description at Alma Tractor & Equip and located some hydraulic suitable O rings this exact size. They appear to fit properly and we have oil flow at the accessory port on the lift cover when the accessory lever is 'on'. So I'm guessing we are sealed well enough that the lift should at least move with no implements attached. What do you think?
So if we have hydraulic pressure to the lift cover, where should I look next? I see we have a pressure relief valve in the cover and the piston/'valve assembly. Are there any other possibilities? Is it advisable to actually measure the pressure delivered to the lift cover? Where do I plumb the test gauge, into the accessory port?
Thanks. |
What does this mean? '..and we have oil flow at the accessory port on the lift cover when the accessory lever is 'on'. 'Accessory lever is on' sounds like you have some kind of valve, maybe a Selec-trol-valve or the like? If you don't then the test port is #2 in far right image/photo. If not like this, then where are you talking about having flow?
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| | Back to top | BobW
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| | Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | JMOR There is ~3x5' plate on the top of the lift cover that I understand is where a hydraulic accessory can be plumbed in. It has a 3/8' female NPT fitting with a plug in it. I think it is labeled 2 in your far right photo. There is a lever on the right side of the transmission housing that turns hydraulic flow on and off to this port. I removed the plug, put the lever in the 'on' position and got a flow of hydraulic oil flowing from the port. Sorry, haven't quite figured out how to display a picture here so follow this link to the exploded parts diagram for Ford 600 hydraulic system: http://partstore.agriculture.newholland.com/us/AlmaTractorEquipmentInc/parts-search.html#epc::mr04-114ar04-114-57-39248 The lever is labeled 32, the plug is 19.
Kurt How much pressure should there be at this port? The recess is machined maybe a bit more than 1/16' does not appear boogered. The O ring called out in the link above is .487' ID x .103' thick. The o rings stick up a bit above the gasket surface so they should compress and seal when the top is bolted down. I looked at the operation of the lift linkage, nothing broken or detached and it appears to be moving the valve linkage in and out.
Last edited by BobW on Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | Back to top | JMOR
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| | Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | | BobW wrote: | (quoted from post at 22:13:39 03/12/12) JMOR There is ~3x5' plate on the top of the lift cover that I understand is where a hydraulic accessory can be plumbed in. It has a 3/8' female NPT fitting with a plug in it. I think it is labeled 2 in your far right photo. There is a lever on the right side of the transmission housing that turns hydraulic flow on and off to this port. I removed the plug, put the lever in the 'on' position and got a flow of hydraulic oil flowing from the port. Sorry, haven't quite figured out how to display a picture here so follow this link to the exploded parts diagram for Ford 600 hydraulic system: http://partstore.agriculture.newholland.com/us/AlmaTractorEquipmentInc/parts-search.html#epc::mr04-114ar04-114-57-39248 The lever is labeled 32, the plug is 19.
Kurt How much pressure should there be at this port? The recess is machined maybe a bit more than 1/16' does not appear boogered. The O ring called out in the link above is .487' ID x .103' thick. The o rings stick up a bit above the gasket surface so they should compress and seal when the top is bolted down. I looked at the operation of the lift linkage, nothing broken or detached and it appears to be moving the valve linkage in and out. |
That is not an ON/OFF lever for the test port..that is your POSITION/ DRAFT control lever. The pressure you see at that port depends entirely on the load being lifted by the drawbar lift arms.
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| | Back to top | Kurt-NEPA
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| | Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | That description of the top cover to center section housing or-ring sounds normal to me. As long as the o-ring stand proud of the gasket all is well.
JMOR answered your question on pressure a the test port.
If you had the pump apart and it had 6 pistons, you have a piston pump. Should look like this.
Do you have the pump and top cover off the tractor? Or is every thing buttoned up?
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| | Back to top | BobW
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| | Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | Yes we have a piston pump. Everything is assembled at the moment.
After some reading I now understand the use/purpose of the Draft Control lever, although I'm not sure how it actually works. So is the test port simply an access point for measuring hydraulic pressure?
When the DC lever is horizontal no oil flows out of the test port, when the lever is vertical it does. Is that working correctly?
I see JMOR's remark about needing the system to be closed to build hydraulic pressure, but not about the working pressure of the system. I will need to purchase a gauge and need an idea of what capacity.
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| | Back to top | JMOR
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| | Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | | BobW wrote: | (quoted from post at 12:43:42 03/13/12) Yes we have a piston pump. Everything is assembled at the moment.
After some reading I now understand the use/purpose of the Draft Control lever, although I'm not sure how it actually works. So is the test port simply an access point for measuring hydraulic pressure?
When the DC lever is horizontal no oil flows out of the test port, when the lever is vertical it does. Is that working correctly?
I see JMOR's remark about needing the system to be closed to build hydraulic pressure, but not about the working pressure of the system. I will need to purchase a gauge and need an idea of what capacity. |
'When the DC lever is horizontal no oil flows out of the test port, when the lever is vertical it does. Is that working correctly?' No, fluid pressure will be present at that port anytime the lift is being raised or when it is in up position, holding a load. 1950 to 2050 PSI.
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| | Back to top | Kurt-NEPA
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| | Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Ford 600 hydraulics | I got to thinking after I posted early this morning, and that's a dangerous thing at my age. I may not fully understand what you have done so far. This is what I think the situation is.
Symptom: With the tractor running, moving the Touch Control Arm up and down does not result in any motion of the lift arm.
What you have done.
1. Taken the piston pump apart and verified that the piston and spring are in good condition.
2. Removed the top cover and replaced the main piston O-ring and back up washer. Installed new top cover O-rings and new top cover gasket.
Symptom is still the same.
From here I would go back to basics first. Hydraulic systems are very simple, its the valving that's complicated on the 600/800 series tractor. So lets check the basics first before you take anything else apart.
There are three basic parts of the hydraulic system. 1. Pump, 2. Valves, 3 Slave cylinder (piston). The pump and cylinder is what I would check first.
1. Testing the pressure at the test port is good starting point. You can also test the pressure at the bleeder port of the pump. Pressure should be about 2000 psi.
2. Check for pump prime. From the pump bleeder port, convert to a barbed fitting and run clear plastic tubing back to the hydraulic oil fill port. Start the tractor and watch the oil run through the tube. If no oil is moving, or if there are bubbles moving along the tubing, you have a pump problem. Stop the tractor and replace the plug.
3. Check the main cylinder for leaks, Remove the PTO lever cover (round cover under the seat on the left side). Put some weight on the lift arms. Start the tractor and take a look inside. You can see the back side of the cylinder. If oil is flowing there you have a leak.
Might be worth a try?
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